He radiates the aura of God's grace. His face exhibits inner peace, joy and unfathomable satisfaction with what God is doing in his life and ministry. Not among mortals who surrendered their ministries to human discouragement, environmental factors, financial limitations and satanic machinations. Dr. Francis Bola Akin-John, a larger than life apostolic teacher who steers the ship of Church Growth Services Inc., speaks on 10-year existence of the ministry - how it all began, its survival strategies till date, its many challenges, characters around the ministry and its driving force. In this thought provoking interview, this uncommon charismatic and amiable leader bears it all, the untold story of the ministry in a decade.

Congratulations on the 10th year anniversary of the ministry sir. When did this ministry start?
Thank you, brother. Actually, the ministry started in July 1994. It was a Sunday morning when the Lord spoke to me that I should start what He had told me 10 years earlier. And from that day I started writing the materials, resources and I was able to computerise them. There was a brother who gave me #5,000 by then to computerise the resources. And by December 1, we launched out with our first seminar, though it was one day seminar. However, we started 10 years ago. (This interview was conducted in 2004)

For the past 10 years, what has been the challenge? Did you encounter any opposition when the ministry started?
Oh yes, as usual. I believe every vision from the Lord will receive quality opposition from friends and foes alike. When we started, we received a lot of opposition because, to the best of my knowledge, this is the first kind of ministry that is into this kind of work, full time in a professional way ministering to pastors, providing information and resources on how we can have healthier Churches, more dynamic ministries and ministers who will work as New Testament kind of ministers. So when we started, I had a lot of opposition from my denominational Church by then. They believe one should not run such a ministry. Thank God we knew what the Lord told us and we got dedicated to it and today, as people say, the rest is history.

I was going to ask if you were in any Church. But what you have just said has given me a clue, so I will still ask that question: were you in any Church, what denomination specifically?
I was in Christ Apostolic Church (CAC). And CAC is a Pentecostal Church, very fundamental but big Church. But they didn't quite understand this aspect of ministry. Eventually, I pastored there for eight years until I resigned fully in 1996 and became full-time with Church Growth. While in CAC, I gained valuable experiences. The way I always love to title my experiences there is, how not to lead a Church to growth. Because I gained a lot of experience from there. I gained majority of our teachings, illustrations, examples while I was in CAC. Because there, I saw the way Churches were being led. I saw how they were run, which made Churches to die. So today, we talk or share with pastors in a practical and relevant way, not what we read in books. They are things that one had seen in the ways Churches are being run. Unfortunately that is the way Churches are still being ran in Nigeria . But thank God, changes are coming gradually.

You said you pastored for 8 years. Was it when you were pastoring you got the vision for Church Growth as a ministry or was it entirely a different assignment from the Lord?
Eem, I got the vision - the Lord spoke tome in 1984 that I will do Church Growth in Nigeria . I didn't quit understand. But then I was reading somebody's book, David Yongi Cho of Korea . He was Paul Yongi Cho by then. I was reading his book and was kind of fascinated, so the Lord spoke to me while I was in prayer in 1984 that I would do Church Growth. By 1986 I started going to Bible School and preparing. Most of the theses I wrote then were based on Church Growth in all those places I went.

In the coming years, Church Growth Services will not only be dealing with pastors. We shall also be dealing with Christian businessmen

But I didn't know how the Lord was going to fulfil it. I didn't know how it will come to reality. Most of those theses and write-ups on Church growth were often scornfully despised by leaders in those schools and Churches. They made jest of me by asking, what do you know about Church Growth? What is Church growth? Because by then if you say Church growth, what it meant to people is prayer and evangelism. Once you can pray and you can evangelise, that is Church growth. '.

I even heard one of my pastors who said that, look, Church growth is about prayer and evangelism. But I too did not fully grasp what it means then. But I just know the Lord spoke to me. So, J was preparing. And pastoring those Churches also were kind of preparation. And you know incidentally, looking back I know the Lord was preparing me. Because in the cause of those 8 years I was able to pastor a new Church, pastored an old Church, pastored a big Church. I was equally able to pastor a poor Church and a rich Church, where majority of the members there were top lawyers, engineers and so on within those 8 years of my pastoral experience. So I gained valuable experiences with those Churches and by the time I started Church Growth Services, the Lord had really prepared me. Though since then, I have learnt more and more. But those are the foundational experiences. So, it was not while I was pastoring that I had the vision. I got the vision before then and in the cause of God preparing me, He allowed me to go through those processes of pastoring.

When you started the ministry, were there people, apart from the opposition, who said this is a calling and believe in it or was it just opposition generally?
No! no! no!. It was not opposition generally. I think that is a good question and it is really an opportunity to pay some tribute to people like that. When I started my denomination, I was persecuted. Part of the misunderstanding was because of my youthful exuberance. I was kind of dedicated and said this thing must be done. So, some of the faults definitely came from me because I was not patient enough. I was kind of doing it my on way. But all the same, by the time I moved out and did our first seminar and by January 1995 when we started doing the first 3-day seminar, oh, we had a lot of people who came around and supported us. I had people like Rev. (Dr.) Ajose, Rev. (Dr.) Ajibola, Rev. Soji Akindapo, Pastor Dairo, Rev. (Dr.) Z. A. Ogunmola, Pastor Tanimomo. Then at LASU, we had Professor Oshun; Professor Dapo Ashaju, who was then a doctor, he so much supported us and gave us LASU to use by then. We started using LASU as the venue of our conference. So we had people like that who saw it as a great vision and supported it.

Rev. Ajose has been a good supporter right from the outset. He came and said, "Look, I don't have money but I think this is a healing ministry". I will never forget the time I was discouraged and I wanted to pack up everything. When I told Rev. Ajose, he said "No, you don't pack up a healing ministry. This is a healing ministry". That was a very profound statement to me and I took encouragement in that. I equally had Rev. (Dr.) E. O. Folarin who gave us his Church to use in order to start our school, Africa Institute of Church Growth in 1996. He didn't collect a Kobo from us. He gave us chalk, blackboard and mandated his secretary to always get the place ready for us every Monday - all for free. We really had a wonderful time. So it was not all persecution. There were many people who offered supports in kind, not in cash.

These people that offered you supports were they just primarily members of your denomination?
No, they are not members of my denomination. In fact, majority of them were more elderly than me, more experienced than me and they have their Churches and ministries. They are not members of my denomination. They are from outside. You see, the support I didn't get from inside I got from outside. They are from various Churches and they said, look these things will be a blessing to us here. So they offered their support.

They were encouragement to me and they felt this thing can be done. We don't have the money to give you but we have words of encouragement. And whenever we call a seminar they always come around and helped to spread the news to others. They tell others in their own circle of influence, letting them know what we are doing. So that helped us and in every seminar (by then we held seminar every 3 month), we kept on having increased numbers in attendance. The first seminar we had about 70, the second one we had 120, third one 150 and the fourth one we had 170 in attendance. So people just kept coming in increased numbers due to the good works of the people I mentioned earlier, and other people who are not mentioned here but who kept spreading the news.

	"...I was the smallest in that denomination among the ministers. I was the youngest and kind of the newest. So by the time I started, the persecution was so much that a lot of people saw me as a rebel. They saw me as good-for-nothing boy. But thank God, He helped me to prove them wrong at the end of the day..."

In some denominations, when a pastor leaves, there is always an instruction to every member or pastor of that denomination: don't follow this person, you must not have anything to do with him. Did you also have that experience?
They didn't really tell people not to follow me. You know, it so funny. I was the smallest by then in that denomination among the ministers. I was the youngest and kind of the newest. So by the time I started, the persecution was so much that a lot of people see me as a rebel. They saw me as good-for-nothing boy. But thank God, He helped me to prove them wrong at the end of the day. Nobody particularly told people not to come. But I just found out that they won't come. Even up till today majority of them don't come. Maybe only one or two of them come. But they have realised that they are missing a lot. Maybe because of past dealings or whatever, majority still don't come.

It is the outsiders that go back and tell them stories of benefits, and values they received, information that has helped their ministries et cetera. Some of them will go back with outline which they photocopied, buy tapes with notes from others secretly. But up till today, majority of them don't come. Anyway, we are good friends now. Personally I decided not to have any bitterness within me towards anybody. I believe those periods were just part of God's plan and preparation. So to me, I have no grudge, no malice, no animosity. I believe that period was part of my learning process. I am still willing to be of assistance to the Church. A prophet is not without honour in his own home. So, that is just what is still happening.

Majorly, it is the outsiders that are appreciating it. And I don't count them as outsiders as such but I see them as my audience. Okay, at a point, majority of my denomination came but none from the particular branch where I came out from. Though, our leader later came. In fact, the last conference he was around and others were there and he saw what God was doing. The thing that affected my leader most was that a lot of pastors went and told him lies about me. But he later learnt that these things were not true. Although it was too late by then.

Could it be that your denomination, like other Churches they are now, was afraid that your ministry was going to be a Church eventually?
Oh yes, of course a lot of people were afraid that maybe it would become a Church because by then this knowledge of separating Church and ministry was unthinkable and considered impossible. But when the Lord opened my eyes that this is a ministry, not a Church - we started focusing on that and repeatedly I kept saying it. And eventually they saw it in our action. They saw it the way we do things, that we are not going to be a Church. We just want to be of assistance to Churches. We just want to be of assistance to the ministers, the pastors - we just want the Churches to be healthy and growing.

Eventually, a lot of pastors were able to overcome that idea because, to be very candid and be fair to pastors and Churches, there have been ministries like that that started in Nigeria and said - look, we are not going to be a Church, we are just a ministry, helping the Church. Based on that, a lot of Churches released their members to be part of these kind of ministries. But at the end of the day, they found out that those ministries turned to become Churches. Since then, Churches have been very careful. They are wary of ministers that come and say, ours is not a Church bla bla bla. Though, some people are still doing it, but people have come to realise that Church Growth Services is not a thing like that. We are not a Church and we will never be a Church.

For 10 years and yet not a Church. What is the logic, focus or direction and how have you survived it considering pressures from some people calling on you to turn the ministry into a Church?
I believe it is a question of focus and properly understanding the call. It is also a question of creativity. I remember at a point I was really thinking of turning it into a Church, especially when I resigned from my Church in 1996. Things were so tough and I was thinking of starting a Church and eventually I started. I started a Church and at least I did two Sundays. I started in my parlour with my wife and four, five other people joined us. But by the third Sunday I cancelled it. I said no, this is not what God said I should do. My heart was not there. But because I was thinking maybe this should be part of the call. Later on, after about two weeks with the Church I said no, am not going to do this.

So I stopped it there and asked my wife to find a Church to be attending with the children that this thing is not going to be a Church, there is a way we will do it And the moment I stopped that, I started focusing and the Lord began to give me ideas. So I started writing books, turning some of our materials into books, started doing a lot of researches and from there, African Institute of Church Growth which is now the training arm of the ministry, was conceptualised and birthed. It started so powerfully. Students started coming. Though, initially we had people who came. But at a point we had just 8, 5, 7 students but we kept on. And how much were we charging - maybe about N6,500 by then.

So, sometime I got there and was really discouraged. But I said no, this thing should not be a Church. It should run as a ministry. We started holding lots and lots of seminars. Even those seminars we were running then were at a loss. But what kept us going was that, we kept receiving lots of encouragement, testimonies from pastors, ministers and Churches telling us - those seminars, teachings and training we offer are solving our problems; ministry is becoming better for us etcetera. So it was those testimonies that kept us going. I hope you understand? Through those seminars, conferences, the training and materials we had a lot of people inviting us anyway. So they invite us to their Churches to hold workers seminars and other things.

Those things kept us busy and by the time we get to Saturday and Sunday, you are so worn out to think of running a Church service. Because throughout the whole week, you are busy from one seminar to the other. From one training to the other, one teaching to the other, one programme to the other and so on. So by the time Sunday arrives, you are too busy to think of running a service, you will rather prefer to stay at home and rest because from Monday morning you are at it again. That took our interest away totally from Church and by the time we started having our books and conference materials, people started purchasing them gradually. From then on, we knew there is a way even though from that 1995 to 2002, we were running at a loss. We were holding all the conferences and seminars at a loss. But we kept on because the Lord says there is a way here. And by and by today, thank God we no longer run the ministry at a loss or debt.

	"...We started the ministry with N800 with lots of losses and losses. Because CGS was a new ministry, most of our books nobody bought them. At most of our conferences in those days, people photocopied our materials. They love the material but they won't pay the little price for it..."

Just writing books, materials and all of that, trying to generate money for the ministry - a lot of people will not believe that was sufficient to have money to still run a ministry like this that is not a Church. Do you have supporters from abroad sending you Dollars or, within Nigeria that are just in the background, who understandably might not want to be known or mentioned?
To be very candid there is no supporter. That is the truth! We always look above and not abroad for the needs of the ministry to be met All we have done so far, getting an office and all we have done, has been prudent management of the little resources that we have. You see, that is why when I teach financial freedom to people, they kind of get blessed. Because I will tell them this is what I have done, this is what I have used.

We started the ministry with N800 with lots of losses and losses. Because CGS was a new ministry, most of our books nobody bought them. At most of our conferences in those days, people did the photocopy of our materials. They love the material but they won't pay the little price for it. By then we were charging maybe N300, N500 and people would not pay. Four of them can come, one of them will pay the registration fee while the rest would go and do the photocopy.

Not that they told me, I saw it with my eyes. Even our students do it. A lot of people take our materials outside and do the photocopy. Majority of them take it and use it for their own seminars and even reproduced it in copies for their programmes, without acknowledgement of the copyright owners and they will never pay honorarium or royalty to us.

But that didn't bother me. I was kind of happy that at least our materials are what people are using. Yes, that was my own view on that. I was happy that, oh - so the little we have people can use it to bless others. So I was happy that the gospel of Church growth is being spread, either legally, illegally or whatever, it does not bother me. But my happiness is that people use what I write to be of blessing to their Churches - oh, I was happy with" that. So, no one was forth coming like I said. Those good people the Lord has used for us were very good in kind but not in cash. And I thank God nobody supported us in cash. Except maybe one or two years, there was a time my brother gave me N200,OOO - which we used to do something in preparation for a conference. I think that was the cash I received most. My brother by then, although he is now running his own financial ministry, gave us that money, yes.

But in the course of publishing books, materials, this and that - all we have been able to do is, manage our resources. We don't employ who we can not pay. And I explain to those working with me that look, this is what I can pay for now. If you can work very hard the Lord will help us - and they know. So that is the way we have been able to manage our resources together. I don't live beyond my means. I always lay emphasis on the ministry. I have been living in one place for the last 8 years. I know it is no longer conducive for me but I have to live there because I want to conserve funds. It was just the upper week I packed out of that my accommodation of 8 years into a new one. So it's part of our strategy until the ministry is viable enough so that we can do whatever we have to do. "

So, it has been the faithfulness of the Lord and prudent management of the little resources we have. And that has paid up for us. Today we can do what we want to do. We can talk without anybody gagging our mouths. We can talk today without looking back our shoulders that we have to pay up one debt or the other. We owe nobody. We don't owe. There has been prudent management of resources - the little money from the books, the little money from the conferences, seminars and most importantly from the school have been of real tremendous assistance to us. So that is what the Lord has been, and is still using for us to keep on running this ministry effectively.

One area the ministry has been so much visible and made so much impact is through its training arm, African Institute of Church Growth. In the cause of training pastors have you courted their troubles, maybe by the fact you tell them, the hard and bitter truth you say - especially from the big Churches?
[Cuts in with mild laughter]. I think we have not had much problem because we made it clear from the outset that if you come to our Institute, it is not a theological seminary. There we are going to tell you bitter truth, about the ministry the way the Lord has helped us to understand it from biblical and contemporary perspectives. We are going to tell you this is the way the Church should be run. This is the focus of the Lord for the Church. This is His plan for His work and all that. So, we have not got so many problems with pastors either from small or big Churches. We have discovered that even majority of those who come, they hear the teaching and it improves their lives. But not all of them have been able to inculcate that into the running of their Churches, particularly those who come from denominational Churches.

You see, denominational Churches are very, very institutionalised. And it is very hard to change those institutional factors. Unfortunately, it is those institutional factors that often kill Churches. So pastors that come from denominational Churches will have a hard time implementing those things in their Churches. It has taken a lot and I always counsel that it takes a lot of patience to introduce the needed changes in those Churches. But the pastors who are individual Church planters are enjoying themselves because it is very easier for them to practicalise those growth strategies. And quite a number of them have reported real improvement in their lives and ministries.

One thing that is unique about the school is that all the lecturers are not theoreticians. They are practical people. We have lecturers who are practicing pastors. They too have gone through the course. So they teach from practical perspective - what they too have learnt and practised which has brought growth and expansion to their Churches. So the institute runs practical, day to day, down to earth strategy. You can't come to the school and remain the same. If your Church doesn't change at all, you will change, and that is the most important thing. If you can change things will change. But if you don't change, nothing else will change. So we lay emphasis on the minister, changing his life, views and the way the Churches are being run. It has been of real blessing.

Sometime ago you were quoted as saying a popular Pentecostal Bishop, openly made some inciting statements condemning your gospel of Church Growth and the works of African Institute of Church Growth. Can you please expatiate on that?
Yes! It a beloved Bishop. I call him beloved because I have nothing against him. He spoke according to his own level of understanding by then. But unfortunately, here in Nigeria we place people on pedestal. We no longer read the Bible. We only read what a popular speaker or a popular Bishop, pastor or apostle says. The weaknesses of Nigerian Christians are that we don't check up with the Bible. We are not like the Thessalonians, who regularly check up whatever they heard the apostles teach.

What really happened was that we were in a conference in his Church, it was a school of ministry. And he made this comment, "look, what do you go to learn from people that say they are doing Church growth and they have no Church. There must be proves. Whoever would teach Church growth must be somebody that has a Church. He must be somebody that is running a Church". He made those comments and even put them in some of his books. And you know, some pastors that knew me there looked round exchanging surprises, and I said stop looking at me - he is speaking according to the light that he has. That was the comment he made and that made a lot of young pastors not buy into what we are doing, at the initial stage.

But thank God, by our consistency people come to believe us that we are for real. I took pain to explain to people later on at some of our conferences that there is a difference between Church growth being taught from the personal experience of somebody who has grown a Church. If you go to such a person, he will teach you Church growth according to what he did in his Church to make his Church grow. But the weakness of that approach is the tendency for you to go and transplant what you have learnt in his Church in your own Church, which will not really work anyway because the environment and the situation might be different. That is the same weakness of American or Korean Church growth. You see a lot of people travel to America and Korea , trying to import the Church growth principles and methods over there into Nigeria here. But it will not work as such at least to 80% method because the environment, situation, culture and everything is different.

So that is where ours come in. We teach you from African perspective, understanding the culture, the way Churches are being run here. We try to contextualise our teachings and training to what is happening here. I had to explain to people and furthermore, to let them know that, you need Church growth that is taught from a neutral perspective. Sadly, they failed to realise that we too were pastors before like I explained earlier in this interview. I have pastored Churches before and garnered vital experiences from that. But at the same time, our greatest strength is that we do researches into Churches on our own. And we have a lot of pastors who teach, train and study with us. These are practicing pastors and we kind of 'use them as laboratory' and through them we get a lot of facts, researches from them which we make use of That is why our teachings are unique and practical.

Like somebody said something to me of recent and I laughed. He saw our teachings, booklets, materials and resources. He thought we got them all from the internet, so he went searching and searching for months on internet maybe he will get just a clue into what we do. He searched and searched and couldn't find anything. So he came later and said, "I am surprise, none of your materials is on the internet. I had thought you download them from the internet." I laughed. Because we don't download them from the internet. We laboured on them. We do research. We pray and the Lord gives us what to-write and gives us insight, wisdom and revelation. This is how we have been producing our materials.

So to me, the comments of the bishop are inconsequential. At the end of the day, he too is having crisis in his Church now. That means he too needs Church growth material and resources to help him overcome what he's passing through.

The AICG has blessed and transformed so many lives, pastors and Churches; can you put a figure ­around how many students have passed through the AICG?
From Lagos , Ibadan and Abeokuta - I can put the figure roughly around 2000 that have passed through AICG. But if you say those who have really graduated - it may be something around 1500 or thereabout. You see it is a 6 month course and we want to bring in people that are serious and willing to learn. Not everybody that comes to conference comes to AICG to study as student. AICG started in March 1996. So it is just about 8 years now.

Church Growth Services is the mother ministry and that one is 10 years now. But AICG is 8 years, and in those 8 years at least we had more than 1500 pastors that have passed through AICG, so it has been quite interesting. Also remember that it is not a theological Seminary. It is a school that, after you finish your theological training and you start to pastor, you have to come. And we lay emphasis that those we want are those pastoring. Though if you come to our advance course, you will get something there, at least your life will be impacted. But from post-graduate level upward, it is basically for those who are practicing pastors.

The training services as in seminars and conferences rendered by Church Growth Services, are they limited to Lagos alone?
No! It is not limited to Lagos . No! no! no! Lagos ? Not at all. Thank God we have been to Ibadan , Port-Harcourt, Enugu , Aba and other parts of the country. It is only the Northern part of the country we have not been to. We have equally been to outside Nigeria - into South Africa , and other African countries. Our books and resources are all over Zimbabwe , Ghana , Zambia , Burundi , Mozambique , Botswana and all those countries. Even outside Africa also God is helping us to penetrate. So it not only limited to Lagos . It is just that Lagos is our operational base, it is our headquarter and from there we launch out to everywhere.

So will it be right to say the ministry of Church Growth Services reaches out to every minister in any denomination?
Oh sure! Sure! Anglican Churches, Church of the Lord (Aladura), Pentecostal Churches, Methodist, African Church , Celestial Church of Christ, Baptist, Evangelical Churches and other independent ministries. Our ministry teaches out to everybody, trying to show them that these are Churches of the Lord Jesus Christ. This is the very reason He started the Church. This is what the Church should be doing because many of our Church practices today are beside the point. Many of Church practices and institutional factors in Churches have driven us away from the main reason why the Lord started the Church.

So, we believe we are commissioned by the Lord to bring as many pastors and Churches as possible, from whatever denominational background to the mainstream of God's purpose for planting and starting the Church. In the cause of doing that, we don't discriminate. As you come, we give you the true word of God as the Lord reveal them to us. And the results have been so amazing.

Certainly, you are not the only one doing the work in the ministry now to make sure things happen. Do you have staff that are dedicated and working on your behalf?
Oh, of course I have a lot of them. I really appreciate Rev. Oluwaniyi, he is a strong backbone. I have Olalere there too, very good. I also Wale and a lot of ladies who have been our secretaries - Eunice and many of them. Some of them are back to school now. They will come back later on. And I also love Solomon. He was my former staff, he worked with us. But thank God he said the Lord was leading him to start a ministry. And we gladly released him, gave him resources and materials to go and start with. I should believe he is doing well wherever he is. So I really appreciate him. We started together but somewhere along the line he felt he has a ministry that he wants to run. When he was here, we enjoyed his fellowship together. But now that he is not here we are also doing well and I believe he's doing well too.

And we have other people, non salaried staff. They are volunteers - such as Evangelist Adekusibe, he has been of tremendous assistance to the ministry. We have Pastor Shenkomaya there and Dr. T. T. Lawal. We also have Dr. Uthman. At Ibadan , I have my pastor Oladokun there, pastor Iyiola, Pastor Adebayo and Pastor Hosea. They all have their own ministries. But they come together as lecturers. There are so many of them who are committed to this vision. I just remember some of them here but there are still many of them.

Tenth anniversary of Church Growth Services is coming up. With the benefit of hindsight, do you have any regret in starting this ministry?
I have no regret. Not at all. In fact, my regret is that I could have done more than I have done. That is why this 10th anniversary is not going to be time of distributing food to everybody, no! It is just to take stock of our activities so far. And that is why I titled it, The New Beginning.

I believe all these 10 years are just a foundation and beginning - just the genesis of what the Lord wants to do through our ministry for the Churches and the leaders and ministers all over Nigeria , all over

Africa and the whole world. So to me 10th year is a unique year, it is a decade already. And if I understand God's move, He loves to change His move in every life, in every ministry when it is a decade. So I believe this is a new beginning for our ministry. I believe those who are pastors and Church leaders should be on the look out for greater impact, greater expansion, empowerment through our ministry so that the Church of Jesus Christ can rise up and fulfil her destiny which will certainly usher in mighty revival of gathering of souls before the second coming of our Lord and saviour, Jesus Christ.

You have a passion for pastors - training them, expanding their knowledge, making them to grow and all that, even for the Church. What is the ultimate vision of this ministry in affecting pastors?
Oh, my ultimate vision is that every pastor that comes in contact with us and every Church, within the Church of Jesus Christ , to be healthy, dynamic, growing, effective, planting new Churches and winning many souls to the Lord ­and the Church being the habitation of God on earth where there is love, peace, health and growth in the real body of Christ.

Every Christian in the Church showing the mind and the character of a genuine Christian, being a real model to the unbelieving world. And that every pastor will be a genuine man of God becoming a man of integrity, sincerity and real dynamic pastor of today that can lead the Church of Jesus Christ to the promise land, which is heaven, so that when the trumpet sounds every pastor and Church leader will be raptured home.

And in the cause of doing that, the pastor will have to keep on learning. Keep on changing, improving, growing and expanding. So that is our ultimate vision. We ourselves inclusive, because we don't want to get people into heaven and we are not there - no, we want to be there. We want to lead the way. We want to be a true model and also a true example. We want to live what we preach and be a model of what we teach pastors. We want to be a pastor's pastor. We want to be a leader's leader therefore showing greater sacrifice and maturity to others.

So ultimately everybody that the Lord allows to come in contact with our ministry their lives and Churches will never remain the same. The Lord's power will transform and change them into whom He wants them to be, not what we want them to be - but what the Lord wants them to be. Ultimately we, the pastors and the Churches will make heaven together believing that there, the Lord will reward everybody according to his work.

What is the goal of the ministry for the next 10 years?
The goal of the ministry is to reach out to as many pastors as possible. Our goal also is that in the next 10 years at least 85% of pastors and Churches in Africa will be touched one way or the other by Church Growth Services. In the course of that, we will be having residential courses. We will be having our campsite and conference centres of our own, where pastors can come and lodge there and we can have real full one week conference in residential. That is our vision for the future in the next 10 years. We believe the Lord will actualise that for us and with able supports of pastors. We believe also that our courses will run more residential with more courses for Bishops, General Overseers, Church leaders, Apostolic leaders and Church founders.

We believe Church Growth Services is an apostolic ministry providing apostolic leadership and impartation for Churches and Church leaders. So in the next 10 years we believe the Lord to reach more hundreds of pastors. Because believe you me, there are lots of pastors and Church leaders and ministers who have not heard of our ministry. We know and are aware of that. In the rural areas, in the city and so on. You see, in Africa here, most conferences are just touching the surface. But we want to touch deep deep.

We want to go to rural areas, urban and city centres. We want to go to everywhere touching pastors. We want to provide more and more resources. Resources in terms of books, tapes, VCD., materials and even we want to get to a level where we can provide computers for pastors. And also providing necessary technology for pastors so that this message will be understood very well until every Church of Jesus Christ in Africa is healthy and dynamic. Oh yes, every Church all over the world free from all these crises, breakaway, stagnation, death and bad image and other nasty things which have dented the glorious image of the Church. We want God to help us reduce it to the barest minimum in the Churches of Jesus Christ in Africa and the world.

Also, in the coming years, Church Growth Services will not only be dealing with pastors. We shall also be dealing with Christian businessmen and women. Already we started something along that line, Business Growth Summit, with focus on teaching business principle and Christian ethics in business. Because today there are lots of nasty things and corruption going on even among many Christian business people. We are believing the Lord will help us to sanitise the business world. The Church should not suffer for lack of resources. And there are lots of funds out there in the business world that can help the Church to do a better job and fulfilling the great commission.

So we will be branching into that so strongly in the next couple of years. And we shall also be talking about Family Growth. We will look into financial stewardship and personal finance. I think from next year we will be doing something along that line very strongly. As I said earlier, we already held a business seminar, Business Growth Summit. Though we had few people in attendance - about 23 in number. But the testimonies from that meeting have been so tremendous and we keep receiving telephone calls asking when are we going to do another business seminar. But we want to really schedule our programmes very well so that it will go on well.

Also, we shall be talking so much about men. That is another area we have seen that Christian world is lacking in this part of the world. There is really nothing much going on men - men's ministry, imparting men, training men to be true fathers. A lot of people are growing up to be men and they should know how to be family men, how to be a true father of his children, becoming a true husband to his wife and being a real/man inside and outside of his home. Like I said in one of my quotes that, "Being a male is a matter of birth. But being a man is a matter of choice".

So in the next 10 years you will see us coming up strongly in the areas of men, youth, business and others. You can say these are quite tasking. I believe the Lord who has seen us through in the last 10 years will give us more grace. These are areas the Lord is laying on our hearts. So, we will be branching into these areas in the coming years. So that is our goal and we are committed to that.

What is the influence of your wife on you as a family man?
[Cuts in with wild laughter]. Of course, you know nothing really can happen if the family is not there. My wife has been of tremendous support. Initially she too did not see the vision. But along the line she caught up with the vision and since then she has been of help - when it comes to prayers and love in the home. In everyway, she has been tremendous, very tremendous. I thank God for her. I thank God for my children. Thank God for everybody that surrounds me, they have been a real help to me.

"... Initially my wife did not see the vision. But along the line she caught up with it and has since then been of help - when it comes to prayers and love in the home..."

I thank God for the home He gave to me. I am not a good husband but I believe the Lord has helped me to, at least keep a good home together by His grace. I can say I have a good home. I don't have problem in that area. She is with me all the way. I thank God we are together in the ministry. She too is finding her feet very strongly and I believe in the next 10 years she will be coming up more strongly in the role of women, women ministers, pastors wives and women leaders. She is going to be of real tremendous help to them.

One last question, this is a big vision propelled by a big ministry. It is no doubt quite different from what we have out there. Will you want to crave the supports of Christians and the body of Christ generally in whatever way?
Oh yes! I will crave their supports always. I believe God that a time should come when Christians, Christian businessmen and women and leaders should contribute financially and be of assistance to this ministry. Because we are out to help the body of Christ in Africa and in the whole world, but Africa as our primary audience. We are not a Church. We are only out there to help the Churches of Jesus Christ. I believe a time should come that Church leaders and Christians generally should become world Christians.

We should shelve this our denominational toga. We should stop this - my Church, my Church, my Church. But there is a ministry that the Lord is raising up and that ministry has proved beyond every reasonable doubt that they are out to help the body of Christ, I believe we should help that kind of ministry. And that ministry has displayed integrity in the way they handle their finances - oh yes, we should help that ministry. I believe a time should come, and it should start from this our 10th year when Christians, those who are led by the

Lord should kind of sow into this ministry. Not investing, because this is not a company where you invest and buy shares and it returns dividend at the end of the year. No! But your financial and material supports will help us to reach more Churches, Church leaders and help the body of Christ in the country and beyond. Anything done, or supports given to this ministry is not in vain. Sometime ago, we printed this in one of our journals, in it we talked about partnership - Gold and Glory partners. Maybe one or two people responded for just one or two months and they were not forth coming again.

But I believe it is time that Church leaders should raise quality offerings and giving for this ministry. Because Church Growth Services is also a mission ministry, reaching out to urban areas and at the end of the day rural areas pastors. You see, we did something about a year ago. There was this conference we held and we had to raise supports for missionaries, less privilege and destitute. A lot of pastors responded to that call by giving clothing, foodstuffs, shoes and money. We distributed all of that to mission agencies, missionaries and individuals who had needs. In fact, some were sent to Liberia shortly after the war ended there.

So, we still crave pastors' support for missionaries and the less privileged. We appeal to corporate organisations to support this ministry also. We also will be strong in providing supports and relief materials for the less privileged Churches and pastors. We want to be able to construct buildings for genuine pastors, most especially in rural areas. We believe in the coming years the Lord will be raising up a lot of pastors, Churches, corporate organisations, Christian businessmen and women and individual to support this ministry, because we have a lot of things we want to do. We will need all the finances we can get to be able to carry them out. And they need not to worry about integrity. We are going to make our account open for everybody to see.

Once we start receiving those funds in large numbers, we are going to stabilise everything. Already we have an auditor. We have accounts. Government knows about what we are doing and we have a submitted account. We are going to do things along that line. So any help we will receive we make sure it goes into what it is designated for, not for anybody's pocket, but using it to help the body of Christ and the Church to achieve God's purpose.